My mother has told me in the past that my words are the harshest thing about me: they are sharp and if not thought through carefully first, very acerbic. People listen to me with "an emotional antenna," I've been told, so I'll tread carefully. That's why I am going to use few words about this topic, but reading this article made my heart sink and stomach clench: It is entitled "Apostle: Same Sex Attraction Can Change."
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50404210-78/church-lds-sex-conference.html.csp
I'm sure you've all heard of the recent suicide of a Rutgers freshman, who killed himself after discovering that his roommate had streamed online his make-out session with another man. Bad timing, Brother Packer, very bad timing indeed.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018170-504083.html
So I went ahead and did some really cursory, quick reading on gay Mormons and suicide. This is a link to a Mormon Matters. A father discusses the suicide of his gay son:
http://mormonmatters.org/2008/08/14/the-lds-church-homosexuality-and-suicide/
And this is a link to some very general statistics about suicide among the youth in the Mormon Church:
http://mormonstories.org/?p=85
When I saw Prop 8, the documentary on the Mormon Church's efforts to ban gay marriage in California, I cried through nearly the whole film. It is an injustice, an effrontery to my sense of equality. But what bothered me the most is that I grew up Mormon. This is my culture. A lot of my friends. All of my family. My family are not backwoods bigots. They are loving, kind, good people.
And yet, I sat in that theatre and sobbed.
It is too simple, too formulaic to say that a solution needs to be made. But I don't care. It is not acceptable to have young men shooting themselves in church parking lots because of their sexual orientation.
That's all.
P.S. Special thanks to Kim B. for sharing his thoughts. My eyes are newly opened.
38 comments:
I agree with you Erin, but I also agree with the leaders of my church. And it breaks my heart. I truly causes me anguish, and I don't know what to do. I love you and I'm truly thankful that you are my friend. Thanks for writing this.
Great post, Erin. Thank you for taking the time to research and post the links.
Melissa, leaders are just people and people are fallible. Follow your heart.
i cant really put this in a sympathetic light, so ill try to be as nice as possible. firstly, packers talk was in complete, 100% correct standing with the church's stance on gay unions since the founding of it. theres just no nice way to put it. bashing elder packer is pointless because this is the stance of the ENTIRE church, and should be part of every members beliefs. the church is absolutely against gay unions. why exactly? because it is abhorred by God! God loves everyone irregardless, you say? true, but remember, God loves the sinner, and hates the sin. this was a resounding theme all throughout this conference. because God says being gay is wrong, it is wrong. theres no way around it. no "beating around the bush." it is black and white. it always has been. it always will be. this is unchanging. many people i come into contact with are saying that packer used this to further his political agenda within the church. how can this be when every member of the quorum of the 12, and area 70's, and every other good-standing mormon believes the same thing? to say that this is insensitive is kinda retarded. why should an entire religion change its beliefs to suit the population when its a religion set up under God's rule? God is unchanging and so has his church been for thousands of years. if he were to change his stance, it would create a massive influx of special conditions which would make all others held accountable for this same sin in the past to recieve sudden amnesty. slightly reminiscent of a certain open border policy one nation in particular is having issues with at the moment. erin, you grew up a mormon, you had the teachings, the very light and truth of all things at your fingertips, and you threw it all away. you decided somewhere along the line to lean to your own understanding instead of taking the council of a God who actually sees the bigger picture in its ENTIRETY. have you ever really tried to figure out just why we believe the things we do? have you ever tried to see how everything fits into God's plan instead of how everything fits into the world's plan? into your plan? only one will pass the forge unscathed in the end. do you honestly feel that your knowledge is superior to God's? will you be absolutely right and justified in your railings against God when your time comes? just some food for thought. so, do some research. try to see why we believe the way we believe. if you can honestly do this, gaining firsthand knowledge and understanding of the whole thing, then respond. ill be waiting for a good answer.
I have a problem with the gay community saying his opinion and interpretation of scripture is innacurate. It's his opinion, which he leaves to the members of the church to consider and pray about to decide for themselves the truthfulness of what the prophet and his apostles say (that's the great thing about my religion!)
I wouldn't be bothered so much by this, as they are entitled to their opinion as much as I am to mine, but other articles I've read have the gay community saying Packer's talk encouraged members to violence against them. This is an outright lie which is very harmful to respectful discourse. It perpetrates damaging stereotypes. One of the first things Packer said was that there is absolutely no room in this discussion for incivility, cruelty, or violence. The culture surrounding my religion is a little (ok, completely) whackadoodle, but the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, the religion I live, is one of love and respect.
@ Juli: I agree. It is up to the member to pray and reflect on it. Mormons are not lemmings. @ Anonymous: I owe you no explanations of anything. It is very safe to tell me what to do when you won't reveal who you are. If you can show yourself honestly, perhaps we can have an honest discussion. Until then, forget it.
anonymous is me. now hows bout that honest discussion?
Ah, Jule's basement dweller.
I have heard of you but I have no idea who you are. I think I will be happier leaving it that way. If you were a family member, say, or someone whose opinion was important to me, I would take the time to formulate kind, compassionate discussion. But since I have no need to do that, I shan't. But rest easy in my sis's basement. I hope you're at least helping with chores.
Basement dweller, "it is black and white. it always has been. it always will be"? Really? Like how blacks will never hold the priesthood? Like God's law is chastity, unless you fill out the paperwork and depending on the time in history? Marriage is only sanctified between A man and A woman, except for special periods of time when men are free to run amuck. Maybe you are right, if God tells his servants to tell me to be full of hate, who am I to question?
@chad:
blacks CAN hold the priesthood. unless youve been blind forever. blacks were actually allowed to hold the priesthood from the beginning, though, just like with all things the world is not ready for, it was put on hold for a time. as for men "running amuck," give me one instance when this was sanctioned. also, you must not have listened to the actual talk, because if you did, you would have heard in packer's own words that you need to love the sinner, but shun the sin. can you give me an instance where God DID condone homosexualism? as for church leaders telling the members to spew hate around? honestly, if you had actually listened to anything any one of our prophets have said, you would be saying the opposite. only an ignorant person would post something without knowing at least some of the essential details.
@erin:
does this mean you value your family's opinions? if so, why arent you listening to them? as for the chores, i help out all the time. i was actually babysitting until a few minutes ago while juli was at school. also, im not trying to dis you in any way. im genuinely curious. please dont take offense.
Jules basement dweller: If you knew anything about me, you would know that I left the church many years ago, while I was in my teens. You would also know that my family is respectful of my choices. Free agency is a word that the mormons like to use, as is personal revelation. BTW, I wouldn't engage in theosophical arguments with my friends here. They are progressive mormons and will eat you for lunch. I would especially be sure that when you argue that you use correct words: "Homosexualism" is not a word and will make you appear uneducated and vapid in your arguments. Best of luck babysitting!
http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/church-mormon-responds-to-human-rights-campaign-petition-same-sex-attraction
This is this church's response to the Human Rights petition delivered this week.
Erin, you have no idea what my classes have been over the last few semesters (like anyone cares but me anyway) but I took linguistics last summer, and while the term homosexualism is not commonly used, it's linguistically correct in English. A root word can have up to 3 affixes (prefix or suffix) before it becomes incorrect. Not that this has any bearing on the discussion; I just loved that class despite the ridiculous instructor.
Also, I've never heard the term progressive Mormons. Interesting. @Chad: my basement dweller is correct--the blacks in the time of Joseph Smith were able to hold the priesthood. You can blame racism pure and simple for them not receiving the priesthood again until the 1970's, but if you consider that segregation was the norm until the 1960's, this racism is not forgiven but understood in context. Are you aware that Mormons were actually abolitionists? Also, this is just a side note from the Aboriginal literature class I am taking this semester, but did you know that the Aborigine were not given the vote in Australia until the 1960's? And that laws forced them to work but similar laws did not make their employers pay them, also until the 60's, essentially creating a slave state in the 20th century? Racism is a hideous beast, but we also need study it in context and without the bias of our modern ideals. It takes many generations to stamp out a hideous beast like racial discrimination.
All worthy members received the priesthood when the time was right, and the blessings that have come to the church since then prove that the Lord is pleased with this decision. We were sitting at around 2 million members in '78. We're past 13 million now. And in case anyone feels threatened by the mormons influencing the outcome of things like the Prop 8 vote, sit back and relax. We're 2% of the US population and 0.01% of the world population. Would we call that...a minority?
And for the record, I don't want anyone sponsoring a basement dweller v. progressive Mo smackdown event on Erin's blog. All of you are brilliant and you will never, ever reach a consensus. There's no point in wasting the time and energy.
http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/church-mormon-responds-to-human-rights-campaign-petition-same-sex-attraction
This is this church's response to the Human Rights petition delivered this week.
Erin, you have no idea what my classes have been over the last few semesters (like anyone cares but me anyway) but I took linguistics last summer, and while the term homosexualism is not commonly used, it's linguistically correct in English. A root word can have up to 3 affixes (prefix or suffix) before it becomes incorrect. Not that this has any bearing on the discussion; I just loved that class despite the ridiculous instructor.
Also, I've never heard the term progressive Mormons. Interesting. @Chad: my basement dweller is correct--the blacks in the time of Joseph Smith were able to hold the priesthood. You can blame racism pure and simple for them not receiving the priesthood again until the 1970's, but if you consider that segregation was the norm until the 1960's, this racism is not forgiven but understood in context. Are you aware that Mormons were actually abolitionists? Also, this is just a side note from the Aboriginal literature class I am taking this semester, but did you know that the Aborigine were not given the vote in Australia until the 1960's? And that laws forced them to work but similar laws did not make their employers pay them, also until the 60's, essentially creating a slave state in the 20th century? Racism is a hideous beast, but we also need study it in context and without the bias of our modern ideals. It takes many generations to stamp out a hideous beast like racial discrimination.
All worthy members received the priesthood when the time was right, and the blessings that have come to the church since then prove that the Lord is pleased with this decision. We were sitting at around 2 million members in '78. We're past 13 million now. And in case anyone feels threatened by the mormons influencing the outcome of things like the Prop 8 vote, sit back and relax. We're 2% of the US population and 0.01% of the world population. Would we call that...a minority?
And for the record, I don't want anyone sponsoring a basement dweller v. progressive Mo smackdown event on Erin's blog. All of you are brilliant and you will never, ever reach a consensus. There's no point in wasting the time and energy.
http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/church-mormon-responds-to-human-rights-campaign-petition-same-sex-attraction
This is this church's response to the Human Rights petition delivered this week.
Erin, you have no idea what my classes have been over the last few semesters (like anyone cares but me anyway) but I took linguistics last summer, and while the term homosexualism is not commonly used, it's linguistically correct in English. A root word can have up to 3 affixes (prefix or suffix) before it becomes incorrect. Not that this has any bearing on the discussion; I just loved that class despite the ridiculous instructor.
Also, I've never heard the term progressive Mormons. Interesting. @Chad: my basement dweller is correct--the blacks in the time of Joseph Smith were able to hold the priesthood. You can blame racism pure and simple for them not receiving the priesthood again until the 1970's, but if you consider that segregation was the norm until the 1960's, this racism is not forgiven but understood in context. Are you aware that Mormons were actually abolitionists? Also, this is just a side note from the Aboriginal literature class I am taking this semester, but did you know that the Aborigine were not given the vote in Australia until the 1960's? And that laws forced them to work but similar laws did not make their employers pay them, also until the 60's, essentially creating a slave state in the 20th century? Racism is a hideous beast, but we also need study it in context and without the bias of our modern ideals. It takes many generations to stamp out a hideous beast like racial discrimination.
All worthy members received the priesthood when the time was right, and the blessings that have come to the church since then prove that the Lord is pleased with this decision. We were sitting at around 2 million members in '78. We're past 13 million now. And in case anyone feels threatened by the mormons influencing the outcome of things like the Prop 8 vote, sit back and relax. We're 2% of the US population and 0.01% of the world population. Would we call that...a minority?
And for the record, I don't want anyone sponsoring a basement dweller v. progressive Mo smackdown event on Erin's blog. All of you are brilliant and you will never, ever reach a consensus. There's no point in wasting the time and energy.
Good hell, I don't know why it posted 3 times. Feel free to delete, sis.
Oh Juli, somehow I knew you wouldn't be able to let your little dweller fight her own battle. : ) Mama bear instinct, I suppose?
I will say this, it is only slightly ironic (or is it ironical...maybe you can look it up and correct me for being wrong), that you say let's not fight, but btw, I get the last word by making a fighting point. Let's just leave this all alone, shall we, before you hide your kids from me and cook bacon at all of your family gatherings?
progressive mormons??? is there really such a thing? someone either believes in a religion or cause to the fullest, or they dont consider themselves part of that religion. plain and simple. so, whatever "progressive" mormon friends you claim to have, tell them to call themselves something different because its insulting to the rest of us, and they obviously dont believe that those higher up than them that THEY sustained before being ordained to thier calling were men called of God. secondly, i had known you fell away when you were a teen. i reference this in my first comment i left, (not the teen part, but i suppose thats not important to the discussion), which, btw, the questions ive posted are still valid considering your apostasy. thirdly, i know it comes as a shock to you that i have legitimate friends who are willing to back me up when im right, but who also call me out when im wrong. juli posted before i had a chance to reply because ive not been online for a few days, but this in no way means she defended me because i could not defend myself. (having said that, thank you juli for always being awesome. i look forward to more grammar-spelling-phrase-related excerpts in future posts :D ). if your so-called "progressive mormon" friends wanna try to rip me apart for telling it like it is, (ie: "black and white"), then invite them to challenge me. i can guarantee if they are wrong their logic wont be able to stand for long without taking a serious beating, if it can stand at all when im done picking it apart. as for what ive said before regarding the original topic, it is all absolute church doctrine. it will not change, nor will the general authority's stance on it, ever. God's will and statutes are absolute. no majority vote of man can make God cease to be God. Pres. Uchtdorf gave a very informative talk regarding this very thing in conference. please look it up. it is VERY informative.
also, what makes you think im a woman? just thought it was curious you didnt realize who you were talking to. thats all. ;)
looking forward to your next post.
:D
oh, and bacon is delicious. just thought id throw that out there.
Melisa, How can you agree with two opposing opinions?
Is it possible that you are afraid to NOT agree with the leaders of your church out of fear?... After all, Erin will not cause trouble for you and condemn you to Hell, should you disagree with her...
... I sit here and read all of this...
I cannot help but wonder to myself what you all would be like, if you were born in in an Arab country, like the one I am in now (I am not Arabic by the way)... Like 99.9% of the folks born here, you would be Muslim... and fighting about something else, "God" knows what! (He always does know best, depending on what region he is in)...
I am constantly amazed at how much more power CHILDHOOD EMBEDDED beliefs have over obvious and simple logic. It blows my mind!
...I believe that is One of the main reasons for mandatory religious schooling of young children; get them early, stuff their fresh and open minds with fears and beliefs, and logic, later, has little or no chance of rescuing them... And, thus, there is little chance of disrupting the on-going system they are born into.
Then you can leave them alone to police each other to stay in line...
... and "God" forbid someone (Erin) should stray, even the slightest bit, away from the herd...
as far as religion goes, ive been to a few different churches. catholic, baptist, protestant, and a couple non-demominationals. ive done loads of research. by far, the mormon religion makes the most sense. this is why ive chosen it. not because of some childhood brainwashing. thats not to say you are wrong, because on a wider scale, you make a valid point, but it doesnt apply to everyone. as for obeying religious doctrines, it is done out of respect for a creator, namely God, in this case. if you believe in this faith, as i do, then you see that you only inhibit your chances of eternal happiness by disobeying God's word, so it is not out of fear of punishment, but out of knowing theres something better for you in the end that we follow commandments; the "letter of the law." as for melissa, you cannot believe in two opposing things. believing that homosexualism is alright but agreeing with the general authorities as well doesnt make sense.
Not just a "wider scale", as you put it, Dweller. I have done a bit of research myself and, the majority of people in any religion, were actually born there. If YOU were not born Mormon and did some rebellious soul searching at some point to find something else or spite your parents (which often happens), then calmed down when life's slow but sure ass kicking made you give up the search for your own way and returned to what was so embedded in you, as my siblings did, I would be surprised and you are an exception. The other popular thing is changing "faith" for someone in a marriage situation, or, as in my case, discarding it all together.
... If you are interested, which I do not think you are, as most people who believe what you do so strongly, will not even ENTERTAIN the possibility of something so threatening to what they have always "known" (in fact, I do not know why I have said as much as I have already), I will share with you some things I have learned about Christianity in general, that you may find very... sensible, IF you are open to see and hear. And I promise you, you will awake the next day and no lightening, from your loving and forgiving god, will strike you down. I am proof of that.
The heart is universal.
Eric Palumbo, here in this blog, is one of many who said, "Follow your heart"... That sounds easy and simple. But MOST of the time, the subconscious mind, which is not universal, but molded and directed by the systems and environments, speaks so loudly, that we mistake it for the heart. Why else could any human being cause pain and suffering to another in so many ways wearing so many "noble" titles... at ANY time in history. For example, Thomas Jefferson may have written the declaration of independence, ("...all men are created equal"), from his heart, yet he owned hundreds of slaves...
P.S. Why is that we have to wait for the "end" to have something better?... This is clever of those who teach you this. as they never have to prove it or be proven wrong...
Dear Dweller (Golam?)-
When did you choose to be straight?
Be nice, J. Smith!
This started out on the subject of homosexuality. It is hard to imagine that, after all the progress we have made on this, both emotionally and scientifically, people are still calling it a sin. There have been numerous studies and experiments aimed at understanding why it is and how to possibly "cure" it. And, still, nothing changes and the homos keep popping out of the wombs of healthy female humans.
Does anyone actually STILL believe that this is a conscious choice of those who prefer the same sex?! Why on earth would anyone choose a life that is SO damned by a great many people?! Why would someone choose to engage the same sex organs when the opposite are so much better?! (ummm! I am getting excited!) Homosexuals don't choose, and to condemn them is as stupid as condemning an infant for shitting in his pants! Homosexuals don't choose a life of constant contempt any more than a person of color does! They are born this way- or dare I say, "created" this way... So, if god created us in his image, then he is bisexual. In fact, he is all the things we are. Makes sense.
... I CAN think of a few homos that deserve our contempt, like the ones that we love so much that guide the religions and hurt young boys... And to think that we are so brainwashed and in love with our "leaders" that, we do not believe the rare child who is brave enough to speak up about it... (I wonder how many of those poor guys, who committed suicide, died with that early memory still locked in their hearts...) And even worse, we "disown" our own flesh and blood should we find out about their preferences...
It is time to wake up and realize that we already live in HELL! Those guys killed themselves because it it!
Embedded beliefs-vs-logic
And the winner is... (drum roll)!
... How disgustingly sad and uncivilized we still are.
@James: have you ever considered the thought that God gives all men trials and adversity in order to make them a more well-rounded and understanding people? im not talking about worldly understanding, but spiritual, just to be clear. so, to say that God created men to be homosexual because God himself is bisexual would mean that he is contradicting his own commandments as stated in the bible, in particular, the law of Moses. now, all religions, whichever one you tend to lean towards, (including agnostic), means that you have to acknowledge that God cannot contradict himself else he would be a liar, thus ceasing to be God. so if God really were bisexual, as you have said, he would not be a god at all because of his condemnation of all who practice homosexuality. thus, it stands to reason that God is not bisexual, thus he must continue to condemn the practice of homosexuality lest he be made a liar and cease to be God. it would also stand to reason that people are made to be homosexual in order to fulfil an obligation to learn self control over their feelings and thoughts, just as all people are required to learn, but in a different way, because of God's commandments allowing people to choose their degree of glory in the end according to their works.
as for God choosing to keep revelations and commandments from us til later times, this can be easily explained with your comparison of children being held to higher standards without a knowledge of what is acceptable. a child wouldnt know how to do advanced calculus without first being taught the basic principals of mathematics. they have to be taught basic principals first, else they cannot grasp more advanced concepts. you cannot judge a child on what he doesnt know or cannot grasp, as it is with commandments. we, as a fallen people, cannot live a higher set of comandments if we do not first understand the lesser ones. its a system of advancement, in which you must progress by learning and embracing lesser rules before going on to bigger, more difficult rules which cannot be abided by unless you have the basics down.
now, you claim i said that we are told of a "better end" only after we have done all things God has commanded us to do. im thinking you misunderstood what the intent was behind this. this, like my last paragraph, can be easily summed up by comparing this to childish experiences. for example, children learn habits by being rewarded for good behaviors, such as not crapping themselves because they chose to use the toilet instead of going in their pants. to most effectively and speedily train a child to use the toilet, usually a snack or treat of some sort is promised them if they will but use the toilet instead of their trousers. if they use the toilet instead of their pants, then they are awarded whatever was being used as a reward, whereas if they fail to use the toilet, they are awarded no treat because they did not keep up their end of the deal. it is the same with following God's commandments. we are only awarded with whatever he has promised us if and only if we follow His rules. thus, it is easy to see why i would say that we are awarded in the end only after we have done all that we can do. would you award a child their promised treat if they had not made it to the bathroom? of course not, because this would teach the child that defecating in their pants instead of making it to the restroom is acceptable, just as God would not award us with anything he has promised us if we have not kept His rules.
@j smith: ive been straight all my life. if there was ever a time i was not straight, which i doubt, then it was overshadowed by the fact that i know God frowns upon the act of homosexualism. love the sinner, not the sin.
Cont....
But I feel my comments are lost on your young soul. You've never thought for yourself - no one that expands that much hate and sorrow for someone who is very much happy in their life and not causing anyone any pain has given this topic too much thought.
Its easier for you to judge others sexuality in your basement dwelling than to face the fact that - maybe you are wrong.
Maybe God doesn't care one way or another. Maybe everything you believe in is a lie. Maybe the best way to heaven is to just live and love others and be understanding. Maybe God is gay. I mean he does have impeccable taste.
On a side note - work in Real Estate in New York City. I have seen the market evolve and neighborhoods that were once downtrodden are now alive with life.
Want to know one of the major contributing factors to this? The gay population. It seems that where ever they live Homosexuals as a group (not necessarily individually - god knows sometimes they can be real bitches like the rest of us) but as a group they have spread happiness and oy around the city. As a result The West Village, Chelsea and now Hell's kitch have all gone through revitalizations - from the once dirty, drug filled "straight" dens that they once were.
But you know what -- you don't have take my word for it. You don;t have to listen to anything I say at all. In fact you can live your life just as you are. You might have a very happy life actually. But you will never truely understand the bigger picture. And that is a shame for someone who is so passionate about life. A young person who has so much potential for love and understanding - has taken the road of ignorance, fear and hate.
But I wish you the best of luck... you can always step into the light, open your eyes and make a new friend.. who knows. Maybe a gay person will safe your life someday.. a fireman, police officer, surgeon... who knows.
I have tried to stay out of this in the interest of not pissing my sister off, but I had to comment on just one thing. There is an assumption here by some that if we (me or the basement dweller) had lived a different life experience and met any gay people, we would think exactly the same. With all due respect, that's a pretty arrogant assumption. I do have a few gay friends, and I have no problem with them living the life they choose. Whether or not they choose to be gay, they certainly choose to be sexual. We all do--sex is always a choice except in the case of rape or molestation. Don't tell me, either, that not having sex isn't an option, because it is. Great way to prevent STD's, too. Our sexual selves are only one aspect of who we are, and to focus only on that is detrimental to holistic physical and spiritual well-being.
I also know my basement dweller has some gay friends, and yet he and I still believe in our religion. The assumption that if we knew any gay people we would think exactly as you do, we would become enlightened, is clearly an erroneous one, because we do know gay people and we still have our beliefs.
Like Melissa, we can be friends and love everyone in our lives without having to think exactly the same way they do or even support what they support. I have right wing nutjob friends and friends so liberal Marx would blush with pride. I have friends who party and friends who think drinking coke is a sin. This is what makes the world interesting, and gives us the profound blessing of learning, growing, and changing who we can become. To surround ourselves only with people who parrot our beliefs and support our biases in very emotionally unhealthy.
Jules -
You write very eloquently. I almost began to agree with you towards the end - but then I remembered the Dweller with her or his cold dark unloving hateful dogmatic heart.
No, I jest dweller. While I agree that we can all believe in different things I think it becomes an issue when you condemn someone for something that they had no control over and was given to them by "God".
So according to you gay people are not supposed to have sex now cause they can either choose to do it or not do it.
Ok - so they choose to not have sex with another man or another woman - do they stop their emotions for loving them to and live a miserable life of denial all for the goodness of god.
Lucky you for being born straight.
Again - when did you choose to be straight? You didn't - and niether did gay people. And now you are saying that they should choose against everything their heart and loins are telling them.
If the tables were turned and it were a sin to have hetero-sexual relations would you be able to stop? Could you never have sex again with the person that you loved or lusted for because "God" said it's a sin. I doubt you could and why should you? It goes against everything your biology is telling you to do. It's the same for gay people.
Are you suggesting that Gay men should suck it up (no pun intended) and date women? While they might make good companions I think something could be missing in the relationship for both parties.
What kind of God says its a Sin to do something and then inflicts a large populous with the urge to do it? Not any god I want to believe in. It makes absolutely no sense. None at all.
Unless you are born a sociopath, you are taught to hate, taught to fear and taught to judge by those who surround you. But your sexuality is not taught to you. You are what you are.
@ topaz: k, so there are flaws with your reasoning. for example, you said, "Maybe God doesn't care one way or another. Maybe everything you believe in is a lie. Maybe the best way to heaven is to just live and love others and be understanding. Maybe God is gay. I mean he does have impeccable taste." we know that God does care. we know this through biblical texts, and if you are mormon, you believe it also through the Book of Mormon. why would God make up this whole plan of redemption only to say in the end that none of it mattered because he didnt really have any interest in us in the first place? secondly, your comment about God being gay is illogical because of the reason i stated in my last contribution to this thread. he simply cannot be gay nor can he condone homosexual behavior because he would be contradicting himself, thus ceasing to be God. you also make many refutable claims about me as a person, which is also illogical and quite silly, to be honest, because you really dont know me nor have you been there through my life. you make reference to me having a strong hate for homosexuals when, in fact, ive made it a clear point in all of my comments, that we need to love the sinner but reject the sin. if you really know anybody who is LDS and know the doctrine we preach, then you would also realize that we do not condone hating anybody. we are commanded by our Father in heaven to love all people from all walks of life, not regarding their outwardly appearance or mannerisms, exactly as Jesus did during his ministry on earth. up until this point, everyone has been arguing based on merits and facts and opinions that have been meant to inform. hopefully you will keep arguing with this spirit, and not one meant to insult or slander.
your judging of my life's experiences also shows your lack of knowledge about my life's details. you assume that because i am against homosexualism that ive not had my eyes opened to anything the world has to offer, though i could assume that because of your job in real estate, you have had very little life experiences of your own outside of dealing with those who can afford your opinions. now, to be fair this would be a biased outlook because i dont know any of your background information, just as you dont know mine. see how this works? you cannot expect people to think you are unbiased when you make wild accusations about people you dont know.
to clarify and to give you a glimpse of my life, you might be happy to know i do, in fact, have gay friends as well as lesbian friends. they know that i love them, as i love all people, (yes, even you, oh vehement one), but they also know that i do not agree with their choice of lifestyle. this is not a point of contention between us because we started the friendship knowing full well our stances on this subject. as ive said before, (this is getting a little repetitive now), love the sinner, but shun the sin.
im thinking that maybe i need to explain this phrase, "love the sinner, but shun the sin." we, as understanding and loving people, need to love all people as if they were our family. our siblings, (if you actually have siblings), make us angry at times and we do not always agree on different things, but we love them because they are family; because they are worth our time and effort, as all people should be. this does in no way mean that we should support them when they are doing wrong. just as a child doing wrong, we love them, but we do not condone their bad behavior.
ok, now that thats out of the way... BTW, if there is anyone still out there who does not fully understand this, please tell me. i will be more than happy to come up with more examples. :D
i must admit that you were right about two things in your last comment. 1.)letting people live their lives is what us mormons are all about. everyone still has their agency to do as they please, irregardless of good council and advice their friends and leaders might give them. we cannot force anyone to do anything, or act a certain way. its fully up to the individual to choose what they want for themselves.
2.) God does have impeccable taste, as do other straight men. impeccability isnt strictly a homosexual thing, though it is true they have good taste in things dealing with appearance.
i would also like to thank Ms. Hiatt for being an awesome moderator. hopefully you will rejoin our conversation soon. oh, and i hear youre coming down for a bit to visit family. have a safe trip! maybe we'll meet. maybe...
and another quick point, you are dealing with things that never will be. these "what if" statements arent good examples because they arent real scenarios.
Dark and Dreary Dweller -
You make some good points about my response. I was certainly shooting form the hip and writing with emotions rather than full cautious intellectual(ism.)
I tried to look at your point through my own perspective. I came up with this.
My Roommate smokes cigarettes. I don't like it. I don't condone it - its about as sinful as I think you can get without hurting someone else directly - but I love my roommate. I've known him for 15 years.
Maybe this is similar to your 'love the sinner and shun the sin.'
You could say that my roommate is addicted to cigarettes so he has little choice (or a tough one) when it comes to having a cigarette or not. He has a deep urge to smoke. He is chemically dependent on the nicotine.
So maybe this is similar to your stance on Homosexuality (do you not like 'ality' - you're an 'ism' kinda person).
The difference would be that I don't think my Roommate is going to Hell or not going to heaven based on this choice. He might however be in line for sever health issues and an early grave - which hopefully will not happen.
We are sort of at a stand still here - I don't believe in your God. In my World God doesn't care if you are or are not. He isn't there to judge. These are things that humans created. Much like some other religions - they served a purpose for a time - keeping people alive through common work and belief. But I believe they have served there purpose. The Biblical God with his hell fire and wrath and judging everyone and killing so many. He doesn't exist in my mind. For me there is only a Oneness, an everything that is. An EVERYTHING THAT IS. And with that Oneness comes black and white and Grey. With that oneness comes Straight and Homosexual and everything in between.
If god created the complexity of The Universe, the vastness of the galaxy's, the limitless of quantum particles, life... Dinosaurs (please tell me you at least believe in them) what is the reason for him to be so fickle in judging sexuality that people are BORN with. Why give all of these people this burden to fight against? Why?
What's the point? Cause your God said so? I don't want to hang out with that God. He's certainly not open minded. He probably thinks masturbation is a sin too. He seems like a real party pooper.
We simply will not see eye to eye on this. I believe Homosexuals should be given the same rights in the church and society as we give to straight people. It makes no sense to think otherwise
Dear Basement Dweller,
When I come home, I choose to spend my time with people whose company I really enjoy (family included). I actively eschew those whose company I do not enjoy.
Topaz, you and I agree on many things, which is why I will only say this to the dweller: It must be nice to see the world so clearly. Perception is just perception and we see what we wish to see.
BTW, as the family apostate, I REALLY love that I am loved because the Mormon church tells them to "love the sinner, not the sin." I love getting my love with conditions attached to it.
I do need to make a quick amendment: "Family" apostate needs to read just "apostate." By using the word family, it would lead one to believe that my family doesn't love me, which I am fairly certain they do. I could be wrong, though. ; )
@Dweller, you asked me:
"have you ever considered the thought that god gives all men trails and adversity to make them a more well-rounded and understanding people?"
You mean like extra credit to get a better score in "the end"... No, BD, I do not usually consider things that make no sense to me. THAT makes no sense to me. Life is hard enough without God throwing extra crap on top of it. God certainly knows better.
... But, then again, I guess YOUR God would do something like that. Gotta live a hard life in order to have something in the "end".
You said something about "What ifs" and there being no scenario... when you last left off, I believe? Well, the same goes for your "end" reward. There is no proof that you will have it, with all your hard work and extra credit... is there?
I brought up a few other points that were never addressed in my last ramble, but no need to worry, as I can see what Topaz basically said; this is a dead horse we are beating and we will never agree on the subject or any subject, for that matter, concerning religion. This boils down to battling your blind faith in the bible and it's "letter of the law" and, as long as you stick to it, you will never hear the words of other men. The Bible was written by men. So were hundreds of other books that do NOT adhere to what the bible says. And dare I mention how many interpretations of that bible of yours there are and how many times it was changed? Why do you think there are so many branches of Christianity? None of you can agree on it's so-called "letters of law"! Do you know anything about that book before the "King James" version, where Joseph was the prototype for the guy they now call Jesus? ...Never mind...
We are basically speaking two different languages. Your language is faith and ours is unconditional love and logical THINKING. We have faith in our logic and your faith has no logic.
As, for your older brother and you; speaking of arrogance, thank you for forgiving, loving and tolerating those who do not share your faith, as if your way is THE way and all other ways NEED to be tolerated and forgiven... We- and I believe Topaz will concede- also forgive and tolerate and love you. We even accept you and do not condemn you for your ways or others like you, who's religions have been the root of the most heinous crimes in the history of mankind, including what began this topic in Erin's blog. We know you wont go to hell- although we may sometimes wish it-, whatever you do in this life. But we feel sorry for you that you waste so much time on this in the life you have now.
Good luck with your rewards for all your hard work and extra credit. I hope you find it was worth it, in the end.
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